目前推行民主政治,主要關鍵在於結束一党治國。……因為此問題一日不解決,則國事勢必包攬於一黨之手;才智之士,無從引進;良好建議,不能實行。因而所謂民主,
無論搬出何種花樣,只是空有其名而已。
——《解放日報》1941年10月28日
共產黨要奪取政權,要建立共產黨的"一黨專政"。這是一種惡意的造謠與誣衊。共產黨反對國民黨的"一黨專政",但並不要建立共產黨的"一黨專政"。——《劉少奇選集》上卷第172-177頁
是要徹底地、充分地、有效地實行普選制,使人民能在實際上,享有"普通"、"平等"的選舉權、被選舉權,則必須如中山先生所說,在選舉以前,"保障各地方團體及人民有選舉之自由,有提出議案及宣傳、討論之自由。"也就是"確定人民有集會、結社、言論、出版的完全自由權。"否則,所謂選舉權,仍不過是紙上的權利罷了。
——《新華日報》1944年2月2日
愚民政策雖然造成了沙漠,卻絕難征服民心。
——《解放日報》1942年4月23日
可見民主和言論自由,實在是分不開的。我們應當把民主國先進的好例,作為我們實現民主的榜樣。
——《新華日報》1944年4月19日
像林肯總統和羅斯福總統那樣的民主的政治生活中產生的領袖,是雖在戰時也一點不害怕民主制度的巡行的。他們不害怕民主的批評和指責,他們不害怕人民公意的渲泄,他們也不害怕足以影響他們的地位的全民的選舉。
他們不僅不害怕這些民主制度,而且他們堅決地維護支持這些民主制度。因此他們才被人民選中了是大家所需要的人。
——《新華日報》1944年11月15日
但是只有建立在言論出版集會結社的自由與民主選舉政府的基礎上面,才是有力的政治。(毛澤東答中外記者團)
——《解放日報》1944年6月13日
由於各個國家的歷史發展、社會狀況等具體條件的不同,他們各自所實行的民主政治,可能在形式和內容上,都存在著多少差異。但無論如何,它們之間有一個基本點是相同的,那就是政權為人民所握有,為人民所運用,而且為著人民的幸福和利益而服務。
這樣的政權必然尊重和保障人民的自.由權利;使失掉自由權利的人民重新獲得自由權利;沒有失掉自.由權利的充分享有自.由權利;特別是言論、出版、機會、結社,這些作為實行民主政治的基本條件的人民的最低限度的自由權利,是必須切實而充分地加以保障的。
——《新華日報》1943年9月15日社論
二十年來,尤其是最近幾年,我們天天見的是"只許州官放火,不許百姓點燈。"政府所頒佈的法令,其是否為人民著想,姑置不論。最使人憤慨的是連這樣的法,政府並未遵守。政府天天要人民守法,而政府自己卻天天違法。這樣的作風,和民主二字相距十萬八千里!所以民主云云者是真是假,我們卑之無甚高論,第一步先看政府所發的那些空頭民主支票究竟兌現了百分之幾?如果已經寫在白紙上的黑字尚不能兌現,還有什麼話可說?所以在政治協商會議開會以前,我們先要請把那些諾言來兌現,從這一點起碼應做的小事上,望政府示人民以大信。
——《新華日報》1946年2月1日
中國人民為爭取民主而努力,所要的自然是真貨,不是代用品。把一黨專政化一下妝,當做民主的代用品,方法雖然巧妙,然而和人民的願望相去十萬八千里。中國的人民都在睜著眼看:不要拿民主的代用品來欺騙我們啊!
——《新華日報》1945年1月28日
他們以為中國實現民主政治,不是今天的事,而是若干年以後的事,他們希望中國人民知識與教育程度提高到歐美資產階級民主國家那樣,再來實現民主政治……正是在民主制度之下更容易教育和訓練民眾。
——《新華日報》1939年2月25日
毛澤東,中國共產黨的最高政治家,曾經這樣表示出中國人民的希望:"我們並不需要、亦不實行無產階級專政。我們並不主張集體化,也不反對個人的活動
——事實上,我們鼓勵競爭和私人企業。在互惠的條件下,我們允許並歡迎外國對我們的地區作工商業的投資……我們相信著,並且實行著民主政治"。他說得很對。
——《新華日報》1945年4月19日
限制自由、鎮壓人民,完全是日德意法西斯的一脈真傳,無論如何貼金繪彩,也沒法讓吃過自由果實的人士,嘗出一點民主的甜味的。
——《新華日報》1944年3月5日
他們說這一套都是外國人的東西,決不適用于中國……原來,科學為求真理,而真理是不分國界的……現在固然再也沒有頑固派用國情特殊,來反對科學——自然科學的真理了。只有在社會現象上,頑固派還在用八十年前頑固派用過的方法來反對真理……民主制度比不民主制度更好,這和機器工業比手工業生產更好一樣,在外國如此,在中國也如此。而且也只能有在某國發展起來的民主,卻沒有只適用于某國的民主。有人說:中國雖然要民主,但中國的民主有點特別,是不給人民以自由的。這種說法的荒謬,也和說太陽曆只適用外國、中國人只能用陰曆一樣。
——《新華日報》1944年5月17日
中國要實行民主政治,必須"取資歐美",但又要避免歐美民主政治的一些流弊,更駕而上之,這正是中山先生的偉大識見。
——《新華日報》1942年11月12日
這些一切,只有證明全國人民及各民主黨派對實施綱領的意見,首先是對人民自由的主張,是切實的,迫切需要實現的,萬萬"撤銷"不得的。
——《新華日報》1946年1月18日
這說明英美在戰時也還是尊重人民的言論出版等民主自由的。英美兩大民主國家採取這些重大措置,正說明英美兩國是尊重和重視共產黨及其他黨派,和他們所代表的意見和力量的……同時,(他們)也有一些批評。他的批評對不對,是另外一回事。這種民主團結的精神,是值得讚揚和提倡效法的……全國各黨派能夠融洽的為共同目標奮鬥到底,這是英美的民主精神,也是我國亟應提倡和效法的。
——《新華日報》1942年8月29日
這正如前天座談會主席左舜生先生說的:"我們不去敦促,自由這一客人是永遠不會進我們的門的"!
——《新華日報》1944年5月16日
我們認為最重要的先決條件有三個:一是保障人民的民主自由;二是開放黨禁;三是實行地方自治。人民的自由和權利很多,但目前全國人民最迫切需要的自由,是人身居住的自由,是集會結社的自由,是言論出版的自由。
——《中共黨史教學參考資料》
"現在是非變不可了!""但如何變呢?""我們只要看看人家。換句話說我們一切要民主。我們一切制度、政策以及其他種種,都要向著能配合世界轉變上去改造。
——《新華日報》1945年4月8日
一切力量來自人民!一切光榮歸於民主!
——《解放日報》1945年7月2日
曾經有一種看法,以為民主可以等人家給與。以為天下有好心人把民主給人民,於是就有了等待這種"民主",正如等待二百萬元的頭獎一樣。但是中外古今的歷史都證明了,民主是從人民的爭取和鬥爭中得到的成果,決不是一種可以幸得的禮物。
——《新華日報》1945年7月3日
必須真正做到民主動員,必須有民主政府持行並保障一切民主的措施,這真理還不簡單明瞭嗎?
——《新華日報》1945年1月18日
英國人民把言論、集會、身體等自由作為民主政治的基礎而加以無比重視,從美國方面也同樣表現出來。上引赫爾國務卿自稱一生為這目標奮鬥力爭的正是這個東西。"平等"與"自由"為什麼被民主國家這樣重視,重視到認為沒有這就無從談民主政治呢?這是很簡單的。國父孫中山先生曾經說:"提倡人民權利,便是公天下的道理。公天下和家天下的道理是相反的;天下為公,人人的權利都是很平的;到了家天下,人人的權利便有不平,……所以對外族打不平,便要提倡民族主義。對於國內打不平,便要提倡民權主義"。英美民主政治所重視的平等,正是這一含義……假如至今英美仍不准人民有平等的權利,那末怎樣能夠談得到民主、怎樣能夠實現民治呢?說到"自由"也是一樣,如果連人民言論、集會、身體的自由都不允許,則民治從何談起?……
英國沒有成文憲法,但是英國人民有平等有自由,所以雖沒有憲法也是民主國家。由此看來,民主政治的主要標誌是人民有自由平等的權利……民主的潮流正在洶湧,現在是民權的時代,人民應有言論、出版、集會、結社和身體的自由是真理,實現民主政治是真理,真理是要勝利的,所以高舉民主的大旗奮鬥著的世界和中國人民是一定要勝利的。
——《新華日報》1944年3月30日
年青的民主的美國,曾經產生過華盛頓、傑弗遜、林肯、威爾遜,也產生過在這一次世界大戰中領導反法西斯戰爭的民主領袖羅斯福。這些偉大的公民們有一個傳統的特點,就是民主,就是為多數的人民爭取自由和民主。美國現在是反法西斯戰爭中聯合國四大主要國之一,擔負了徹底消滅法西斯、消滅侵略、建立世界永久和平安全的重大責任,從美國的革命歷史,從美國人民愛好民主自由的傳統精神,從美國人民的真正利益,我們深信美國將繼續羅斯福的民主政策,不會忽視世界各處,尤其是中國人民的聲音,人民的要求。
——《新華日報》1945年7月4日
民主頌——獻給美國的獨立紀念日:從年幼的時候起,我們就覺得美國是個特別可親的國家。我們相信,這該不單因為她沒有強佔過中國的土地,她也沒對中國發動過侵略性的戰爭;更基本地說,中國人對美國的好感,是發源于從美國國民性中發散出來的民主的風度,博大的心懷……但是,在這一切之前,之上,美國在民主政治上對落後的中國做了一個示範的先驅,教育了中國人學習華盛頓、學習林肯,學習傑弗遜,使我們懂得了建立一個民主自由的中國需要大膽、公正、誠實。
——《新華日報》1943年7月4日
七月四日萬歲!民主的美國萬歲!中國的獨立戰爭和民主運動萬歲!打倒日本帝國主義!
——《新華日報》1944年7月4日
傑弗遜的民主精神孕育了兩個世紀以來的美國民主政治,傑弗遜的民主精神也推進和教育了整個人類的歷史行進。
——《新華日報》1945年4月13日
不論程度之深淺,美國是始終保有一種傳統精神的國家,那傳統就是民主。
——《新華日報》1943年4月15日一個平凡而又不平凡的新聞:據說美國在馬紹爾戰場協助土人實行民主,讓他們自己選舉行政官。這是很平凡的事:從民主的美國來說,正應當如此。這也是不平凡的事:從不民主或尚未民主的國家來看,覺得新奇、覺得刺耳、覺得不平凡。
——《新華日報》1944年10月3日
我們尊重並且願意接受美國朋友善意的批評和建議,正如我們對孤立主義提出批評,應受到尊重一樣,這也是從彼此激勵互求進步以加強兩國人民的合作出發的。我們絲毫也不心存疑懼,認為美國朋友的批評是對中國內政的干涉。
——《新華日報》1944年3月15日
如何使青年的思想和行動能有正當的發展……可分兩種,一種是主張思想統制。這就是說,把一定範圍以內的思想,灌輸給青年,對於這種思想是沒有懷疑和選擇的餘地的。……另一種主張是思想自由。……只有自覺和自願,才能產生心悅誠服的信仰,和驚天動地的創造活動。一般民眾都是如此,青年尤其是這樣。如果走相反的道路,則結果都是十分可悲的。有許多事實說明在強迫注入的訓練之下,青年感到很大的痛苦……這種辦法是必須改正的。我們主張思想應當是自由的。
——《新華日報》1941年6月2日
統制思想,以求安於一尊;箝制言論,以使莫敢予毒,這是中國過去專制時代的愚民政策,這是歐洲中古黑暗時代的現象,這是法西斯主義的辦法,這是促使文化的倒退,決不適於今日民主的世界,尤不適於必須力求進步的中國……言論出版的自由,是民主政治的基本要件,沒有言論出版的自由便不可能有真正的民主,不民主便不能團結統一,不能爭取勝利,不能建國,也不能在戰後的世界中享受永久和平的幸福……新聞自由,是民主的標幟;沒有新聞自由,便沒有真正的民主。反之,民主自由是新聞自由的基礎,沒有政治的民主而要得到真正的新聞自由,決不可能。
——《新華日報》1945年3月31日
作統治者的喉舌,看起來象自由了,但那自由也只限於豪奴、惡僕應得的"自由",超出範圍就是不行的。也就是說你盡可以有吆喝奴隸——人民大眾的自由,但對主子則必需奉命唯謹的,畢恭畢敬,半點也不敢自由。
——《新華日報》1946年9月1日
要真正做到出版自由,必須徹底廢除現行檢查辦法,
——《新華日報》1945年6月26日
為了國家利益和革命事業,我們應該貢獻出自己的一切。但這必須事先解決兩個問題,第一,我們那樣犧牲自己是真正為了國家和革命麼?第二,我們所有的一切是些什麼?……一面說青年"根本不能談民主",一面是叫青年"必須犧牲個人的自由",這就是在我們這個國度裏對青年所施行的"標準"的"民主自由"的教育……那不過是為著要裝裝門面而已。
——《新華日報》1945年4月15日
"五四"運動以來三十年的中國史,就是學生愛國運動與人民自主運動密切結合的歷史,就是學生運動充作人民運動的先鋒和輔助軍的歷史。在一代的時間內,中國學生用自己的血、淚和汗寫下了中國民族民主運動史上光輝的史頁,也是世界革命史上特出的史頁。事實證明:中國學生將一本過去傳統的愛國精神,繼續為自己祖國的獨立自主和民主自由而努力,也就是為世界和平而努力。
——《新華日報》1946年11月17日
民主一日不實現,中國學生的愛國運動卻是一天也不會停止的。
——《新華日報》1945年12月9日
反動者企圖以"共黨煽動",輕輕把"一二·一"慘案的責任推得一乾二淨,但是七日的新民報說:"學生罷課反對內戰,當地軍警出動鎮壓……,在這情形中誰是誰非,幾乎不待判斷","看昆明學潮慘案,受害的卻是赤手空拳的學生,他們既無武器,更非軍隊,而竟受到武力的攻擊";"這次慘案卻證明基本人權無保障……政府當局亟須反省"。
——《新華日報》1945年12月11日
這件慘案的事理至為清楚,責任也很分明:一般青年學生只不過激于愛國熱忱,憑了赤手空拳,起來要求民主反對內戰,究有何罪?而國民黨反動派竟採取殘暴手段,慘加屠戮,並在屠戮之後,為了"嫁禍"起見,還不惜含血噴人,肆意誣衊,居心惡毒以至於此,真是史無前例。但是人民是不會受欺騙的,人民是最公正的裁判者,國民黨反動派要想一手掩盡天下耳目,徒見其日益心勞力拙而已。
——《新華日報》1945年12月7日
中國青年在現階段中所從事的運動,應該是爭取民族獨立,經濟平等,和政治民主。為這三大目標而奮鬥的人,在歷史中就有他的地位。
——《新華日報》1946年11月17日
而民主與不民主的尺度,主要地要看人民的人權、政權、財權及其他自由權利是不是得到切實的保障,不做到這點,根本就談不到民主……保證一切抗日人民(地主、資本家、農民、工人等)的人權、政權、財權及言論、出版、集會、結社、信仰、居住、遷移之自由權……中國共產黨一向是忠實於它對人民的諾言的,一向是言行一致的,因此它的綱領中的每一條文與每一句語,都是兌現的。我們決不空談保障人權,而是要尊重人類崇高的感情與向上發展的願望,
——《解放日報》1941年5月26日
單說英美吧。英美是民主國家。這是人人公認的。英美人民有各種民主權利……為了國際的地位,必須從保障基本的民主權利開步走。恐懼是懦夫,疑慮是自私,反對便是倒行。我們再度呼籲:保障人民的基本民主權利。
——《新華日報》社論1944年2月1日
本市消息內政部公開頒行一種限制人民游行自由的法令,藉口是"恐稍有不慎,足以影響社會秩序與公共安寧"。據中央社訊,其要點如下:負責籌備游行的人員,需于事前將姓名、年齡、職業、住址、游行宗旨、集會地點、進行日期及時間經過路線等呈報當地"治安主管機關"。散發的印刷品和張貼的標語須事先送當地
"治安主管機關"審查。上項法令,已由內政部發致全國各省市地方機關,本市市政府業已接到,且已分令警察局及各區公所"遵照辦理"。有了這個"法"的根據,今後各地當局更可以隨意于事先防止臨時禁止一切人民團體之遊行。人民遊行已無自由可言了。
——《新華日報》1946年5月13日
立即釋放全國政治犯!嚴懲虐待犯人、毒殺犯人的兇手!未獲釋放的政治犯應切實保證他們的生命安全,不准再有虐待和私刑拷打犯人的非法行為。
——《新華日報》1946年2月18日
維持一黨專政的政策是建立在製造饑餓和災荒上的,所以這些救災的治本辦法,只有國民黨確定的和各黨派一道走上和平、民主的道路時,才能完滿解決。
——《新華日報》社論1946年3月30日
党對政府的領導,在形式上不是直接的管轄。黨和政府是兩種不同的組織系統,黨不能對政府下命令。
——《董必武選集》第54-55頁
一個民主國家,主權應該在人民手中,這是天經地義的事;如果一個號稱民主的國家,而主權不在人民手中,這決不是正軌,只能算是變態,就不是民主國家……不結束黨治,不實行人民普選,如何能實現民主?把人民的權利交給人民!
——《新華日報》1945年9月27日社論
現在,官方豢養的論客們更公然地企圖恐嚇人民,說國民黨是希望中國安定的,而共產黨卻希望天下大亂……中國共產黨,不但"要變不要亂",而且正是要
"以變止亂"……(國民黨反動派)也是希望某一種"安定"的,但那並不是全中國的安定,並不是全中國人民的安定,而僅僅是他們坐在壓迫人民的寶座上的"安定"。他們那個小集團可以統治全國、為所欲為的"安定"……他們的統治"安定"了,中國百分之九十五以上的老百姓就更會沒有飯吃、沒有衣穿、沒有事做、沒有書讀、沒有說話的自由、沒有走路的自由、沒有住家的自由……廢止國民黨的一黨專政!
——《新華日報》1946年5月17日社論
而在重慶被打得頭破血流的青年學生們的組織與行動也被當局宣佈為"不合法組織……妨害治安",而加以取締。反之,那些打人的暴徒,是合法的組織,是有益治安,而應力加保護。這就是合法政府的合法措施。讓我們在這個不合法的罪名下繼續奮鬥,一直到"人民的憲法"出現的一天吧!
——《新華日報》1947年2月22日
昨天報載:慕尼克在上周未暴動,"革命精神熾烈",這是真的民意了,"納粹調集坦克出動鎮壓"。希特勒要有他自己的"民意",就叫戈林去說話。真的民意出現了,希特勒就派坦克去說話了。
——《新華日報》1944年3月15日
現在,假如我們承認戰後的世界是一個不可抗而又不可分的民主的世界,那麼要在這個世界裏生存,要在這個世界的國際機構裏當一個"優秀分子",第一就是立刻在實踐中尊重"新聞自由"這種人民的"不可動搖的權利。"
——《新華日報》1944年10月9日
國際民主既然與國內民主不可分割,所以要想參加到世界民主國家家庭中去的人們,就無法違反國內民主的原則。——《新華日報》1944年1月19日
法西斯的新聞"理論家"居然公開無恥地鼓吹"一個党、一個領袖、一個報紙"的主張。它們對於"異己"的進步報紙,採取各色各樣的限制、吞併和消滅的辦法,如檢查
稿件、任意刪削,威脅讀者、阻礙推銷,派遣特務打入報館、逐漸攘奪管理權,最後則強迫收買,勒令封閉。
——《解放日報》1943年9月1日
2008年7月2日 星期三
Jiang Zemin Talks With Wallace in 60 Minutes
(CBS) On the eve of his visit to the United States, China's president, Jiang Zemin, sat down for a rare interview with Mike Wallace.
In a wide-ranging and surprisingly frank interview, Jiang talked about many topics, including relations between the United States and China, Tiananmen Square and American morals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The two met recently inside the presidential compound in the seaside resort of Beidaihe, in what Chinese officials say is the first visit there by a Western television news crew.
Jiang, the leader of one of every five people on the planet, has not been interviewed for U.S. television in more than a decade. Wallace's interview will air two days before Jiang is scheduled to visit the United States.
Recently, one of China's government newspapers, The China Daily, called the United States, "a threat to world peace." Asked if he agrees with that assessment, Jiang treaded lightly.
"Candidly speaking, maybe it is because of the economic power and leading edge in science and technology that the United States enjoys, that more often than not [the United States] tends to overestimate itself and its position in the world," he said. "But today I want to convey a nice message to the American people, so I don't want to use too many tough words in our talk."
Asked about the presidential election, and future U.S.-Chinese relations, Jiang said that he has a lot of friends among both parties.
"So you gave money to both their campaigns?" Wallace asked.
"Are you just joking?" Jiang responded. "We have never done such things. I have read the campaign platforms of both parties, and I believe whoever becomes president will try to improve the friendly relations between China and the United States for this is in the strategic interest of the whole world. Someone asked me not to pay attention to unfriendly remarks candidates might make about China during the campaign because once elected they will be friendly. I only hope that's true."
Prior to the interview, Jiang had agreed to give short answers so the two men could cover more ground. When Wallace reminded him of that, a smiling Jiang was ready with a reply, pointing out that his answers had also been long. "I think my answer is roughly the same length as your question."
Beidaihe, the site of the interview, has been called China's Camp David. Beidaihe is where the country's leaders meet in private every August to develop their plans for the coming year. The president agreed to speak candidly with 60 Minutes, emphasizing that he wants better relations with America.
"I hope to convey through your program my best wishes to the American people," he said.
Jiang said that relations between the two countries are, on the whole, good. But he compared Chinese-U.S. relations to "nature," because of its variability: "Our relations have experienced wind, rain, and sometimes clouds r even dark clouds. However, sometimes it clears up. We all sincerely hope to build a constructive partnership between China and the United States."
"That's spoken like a real politician," Wallace responded. "There's no candor in it."
"I don't think politician is a very nice word," Jiang said.
"No, it's not a nice word," Wallace said. "It is a diplomatic word in this case."
Although Jiang is gregarious and likes attention, he has not given an extended interview to an American television reporter for 10 years. He says this is partly because Americans refuse to believe that the vast majority of Chinese are actually satisfied with one-party rule. Jiang, in fact, disagreed strongly when Wallace called China a dictatorship.
"Your way of describing what things are like in China is as absurd as what the Arabian Nights may sound like," Jiang said. "The National Peoples Congress selects the Central Committee of the Communist Party and the Central Committee has a Politburo. And the Politburo has a standing committee of which I'm a member. And no decision is made unless all members agree."
Wallace asked Jiang if he admired the courage of the student who stood down the tank during the student uprising in Tiananmen Square.
"He was never arrested," Jiang said. "I don't know where he is now. Looking at the picture I know he definitely had his own ideas."
"You have not answered the question, Mr. President," Wallace said. "Did a part of Jiang Zemin admire his courage?"
"I know what you are driving at, but what I want to emphasize is that we fully respect every citizen's right to freely express his wishes and desires," Jiang said. "But I do not favor any flagrant opposition to government actions during an emergency. The tank stopped and did not run the young man down."
"I'm not talking about the tank," Wallace said. "I'm talking about that man's heart, that man's courage, that man, that lonely man, standing against that."
Wallace then mentioned that Jiang himself had been a student protestor in Shanghai, during World War II. Was there any parallel?
"In the 1989 disturbance we truly understood the passion of students who were calling for greater democracy and freedom," Jiang said. "In fact, we have always been working to improve our system of democracy. But we could not possibly allow people with ulterior motives to use the students to overthrow the government under the pretext of democracy and freedom."
A month after Tiananmen, Jiang wrote a speech in which he said, "Corruption is growing. If all our party and our government organs use that power to seek material benefits, isn't this just like fleecing the people in broad daylight?"
Wallace pointed out that the Tiananmen demonstrators had also been protesting against corruption. Had they had an effect on the Party, Wallace asked
"I hate corruption," Jiang said. "You are right that during the 1989 disturbance students were changing slogans against corruption, so on this specific point the Party shares the same position as the students."
As an aside, and to underline his credentials as a student demonstrator in times past, the president himself sang a protest song he had used back in 1943 against Japanese troops who were occupying parts of China: "Arise Fellow Students to Defend the Motherland."
The president's aides suggested it would be unfair to show pictures of the violence at Tiananmen Square because, they say, Jiang Zemin had nothing to do with it. But they were glad to give 60 Minutes pictures of their embassy in Belgrade, which had been demolished by American bombers, during NATO's air war last year.
When asked if he believed that the United States purposely bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, Jiang answered obliquely.
"The United States has state-of-the-art technology," he said. "So all the explanations that they have given us for what they call a mistaken bombing are absolutely unconvincing."
"The identification marks of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade were too clear for people to miss," he continued. "So why has there been such an incident? It is still a question. But we have decided to look forward, to improve China-U.S. relations."
Afterward, the U.S. government had tried to convince China that the bombing had been a horrible mistake.
"President Clinton apologized to me for the bombing, many times, on the telephone," Jiang said. "I told him, since you represent Americans and I Chinese, it would be impossible for us to reach total agreement on this issue."
(CBS) In his recent interview, President Jiang told Wallace that accused spy Wen Ho Lee was not a spy for China.
"I can tell you frankly, China was not in any way involved in Wen Ho Lee's case," Jiang said during the interview. "But we do know that he is a scientist."
It is not strange, Jiang said, that Lee came to China and talked to Chinese scientists. "It's just as normal as some Chinese scientists travelling abroad," he said. "Allow me to quote a Chinese proverb which goes, 'If you are out to condemn someone, you can always trump up a charge.' We don't know what political motives are behind it. Today the Chinese still see Wen Ho Lee as a renowned scientist."
When Wallace said that Jiang seemed nervous for the first time in the conversation, Jiang laughed, adding that he was not nervous and he asked Wallace whether he thinks Wen Ho Lee is a spy. When Wallace declined to answer, Jiang chuckled some more.
Years ago when Jiang was a middle-school student learning English, he had studied the speeches of Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln. When he was a teacher, he used the Gettysburg Address in his course.
Wallace asked him about this, and Jiang offered to recite part of it.
"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal," Jiang recited from memory.
Wallace asked him why he learned part that so well.
"I focused on the words, 'All men are created equal,'" Jiang said. "This had a great influence on students when I was young. And I think what Abraham Lincoln described still remains the goal of American leaders today."
"Especially the last paragraph, 'The government of the people by the people and for the people shall never perish from the earth,'" he added.
Wallace then asked Jiang about democracy: "Why is it that Americans can elect their national leaders, but you apparently don't trust the Chinese people to elect your national leaders? "
"I am also an elected leader, though we have a different electoral system," Jiang said. "Each country should have its own system because our countries have different cultures and historic traditions, and different levels of education and economic development."
Jiang was chosen by the top leaders of the Communist Party. Public elections occur only in some villages and small towns, and candidates must either be members of the Communist Party or run as independents.
Wallace asked Jiang why China had a one-party state. "Why must we have opposition parties?" Jiang responded. "You are trying to apply the American values and the American political system to the whole world. But that is not very wise."
"Let me be frank," Jiang said. "China and the United States differ greatly in terms of our values. You Americans always use your values in makig judgments about the political situation in other countries. We want to learn from the West about science and technology and how to manage the economy, but this must be combined with specific conditions here. That's how we have made great progress in the last 20 years."
China's standard of living has been rising dramatically. In China, as in America, the economy largely determines the level of the people's satisfaction with their government. Jiang maintains that the vast majority of Chinese believe a strong one-party rule is the best way to hold the huge population together and to keep the economy growing. Stability is the top priority, sometimes at the expense of human rights.
Wallace asked him about human rights and about the Chinese government's persecution of the religious group Falun Gong.
"Their leader, Li Hongzhi, claims to be the reincarnation of the chief Buddha, and also a reincarnated Jesus Christ," Jiang said. "Can you believe that? He said that doomsday was about to come and that the Earth was going to explode. In fact what he says are just fallacies to deceive people. But as a result of his preaching, many families were broken and many lives were lost. So after careful deliberations, we concluded that Falun Gong is an evil cult."
Jiang pointed out that no Falun Gong followers have ever been sentenced to death.
But 26 of them have reportedly died in police custody.
Jiang told 60 Minutes the Falun Gong has driven thousands of its members to commit suicide.
The Falun Gong said that's ridiculous - that it does not encourage suicide and that it's still going strong despite the Chinese government's efforts to quash it.
Asked about the Chinese government's persecution of Christians, Jiang said that Christians have not been persecuted in China, and that the constitution protects religious freedom, including Christianity. "But Falun Gong is a cult," he said. "It is totally different from Christianity."
Jiang has always favored tough government controls of the press. "The press," he said, "should be a mouthpiece of the Party."
"I think all countries and parties must have their own publications to publicize their ideas," Jiang told Wallace. "We do have freedom of the press, but such freedom should be subordinate to and serve the interests of the nation. How can you allow such freedom to damage the national interests?"
Wallace asked Jiang why it had blocked certain Internet sites, including the BBC's and the Washington Post’s.
"We hope people will learn a lot of useful things from the Internet," Jiang said. "However, sometimes there is also unhealthy material - especially pornography on the Internet - which does great harm to our youngsters."
Wallace pointed out that the BBC and The Washington Post sites did not have pornography. "They might be banned because of some of their political new reports," Jiang said. "We need to be selective. We hope to restrict as much as possible information not conducive to China's development."
China's previous leader, Deng Xiaoping, once said, "to get rich is glorious." Jiang said that while this outlook does allow some people to become wealthy before others, "The ultimate objective is prosperity for all."
Wallace asked him if he thought America was more decadent than China.
"Let me put it this way," Jiang said. "Due to many differences between our countries in historical traditions, ways of life, religious beliefs, etc., things you don't regard as decadent in the States, we may regard as decadent in China. That's why we have to be very selective."
When he travels to America, Jiang will meet with American business leaders to urge them to increase their investments in China. Corporate America has long lusted after China's billion-buyer market, but China still sells a lot more to the United States than America sells to that country.
In effort to change that, the White House has said that if the U.S. Senate approves permanent normal trade relations with China, as the House already has, that would force China to reduce tariffs and trade barriers, and therfore to buy more American goods.
Jiang wants normal trade relations, too, and he ended the interview by underscoring that point.
"I'm convinced that this interview will further promote the friendship and mutual understanding between our two peoples," said Jiang, who told Wallace that he admires America. "I want to promote mutual understanding between our two peoples."
In a wide-ranging and surprisingly frank interview, Jiang talked about many topics, including relations between the United States and China, Tiananmen Square and American morals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The two met recently inside the presidential compound in the seaside resort of Beidaihe, in what Chinese officials say is the first visit there by a Western television news crew.
Jiang, the leader of one of every five people on the planet, has not been interviewed for U.S. television in more than a decade. Wallace's interview will air two days before Jiang is scheduled to visit the United States.
Recently, one of China's government newspapers, The China Daily, called the United States, "a threat to world peace." Asked if he agrees with that assessment, Jiang treaded lightly.
"Candidly speaking, maybe it is because of the economic power and leading edge in science and technology that the United States enjoys, that more often than not [the United States] tends to overestimate itself and its position in the world," he said. "But today I want to convey a nice message to the American people, so I don't want to use too many tough words in our talk."
Asked about the presidential election, and future U.S.-Chinese relations, Jiang said that he has a lot of friends among both parties.
"So you gave money to both their campaigns?" Wallace asked.
"Are you just joking?" Jiang responded. "We have never done such things. I have read the campaign platforms of both parties, and I believe whoever becomes president will try to improve the friendly relations between China and the United States for this is in the strategic interest of the whole world. Someone asked me not to pay attention to unfriendly remarks candidates might make about China during the campaign because once elected they will be friendly. I only hope that's true."
Prior to the interview, Jiang had agreed to give short answers so the two men could cover more ground. When Wallace reminded him of that, a smiling Jiang was ready with a reply, pointing out that his answers had also been long. "I think my answer is roughly the same length as your question."
Beidaihe, the site of the interview, has been called China's Camp David. Beidaihe is where the country's leaders meet in private every August to develop their plans for the coming year. The president agreed to speak candidly with 60 Minutes, emphasizing that he wants better relations with America.
"I hope to convey through your program my best wishes to the American people," he said.
Jiang said that relations between the two countries are, on the whole, good. But he compared Chinese-U.S. relations to "nature," because of its variability: "Our relations have experienced wind, rain, and sometimes clouds r even dark clouds. However, sometimes it clears up. We all sincerely hope to build a constructive partnership between China and the United States."
"That's spoken like a real politician," Wallace responded. "There's no candor in it."
"I don't think politician is a very nice word," Jiang said.
"No, it's not a nice word," Wallace said. "It is a diplomatic word in this case."
Although Jiang is gregarious and likes attention, he has not given an extended interview to an American television reporter for 10 years. He says this is partly because Americans refuse to believe that the vast majority of Chinese are actually satisfied with one-party rule. Jiang, in fact, disagreed strongly when Wallace called China a dictatorship.
"Your way of describing what things are like in China is as absurd as what the Arabian Nights may sound like," Jiang said. "The National Peoples Congress selects the Central Committee of the Communist Party and the Central Committee has a Politburo. And the Politburo has a standing committee of which I'm a member. And no decision is made unless all members agree."
Wallace asked Jiang if he admired the courage of the student who stood down the tank during the student uprising in Tiananmen Square.
"He was never arrested," Jiang said. "I don't know where he is now. Looking at the picture I know he definitely had his own ideas."
"You have not answered the question, Mr. President," Wallace said. "Did a part of Jiang Zemin admire his courage?"
"I know what you are driving at, but what I want to emphasize is that we fully respect every citizen's right to freely express his wishes and desires," Jiang said. "But I do not favor any flagrant opposition to government actions during an emergency. The tank stopped and did not run the young man down."
"I'm not talking about the tank," Wallace said. "I'm talking about that man's heart, that man's courage, that man, that lonely man, standing against that."
Wallace then mentioned that Jiang himself had been a student protestor in Shanghai, during World War II. Was there any parallel?
"In the 1989 disturbance we truly understood the passion of students who were calling for greater democracy and freedom," Jiang said. "In fact, we have always been working to improve our system of democracy. But we could not possibly allow people with ulterior motives to use the students to overthrow the government under the pretext of democracy and freedom."
A month after Tiananmen, Jiang wrote a speech in which he said, "Corruption is growing. If all our party and our government organs use that power to seek material benefits, isn't this just like fleecing the people in broad daylight?"
Wallace pointed out that the Tiananmen demonstrators had also been protesting against corruption. Had they had an effect on the Party, Wallace asked
"I hate corruption," Jiang said. "You are right that during the 1989 disturbance students were changing slogans against corruption, so on this specific point the Party shares the same position as the students."
As an aside, and to underline his credentials as a student demonstrator in times past, the president himself sang a protest song he had used back in 1943 against Japanese troops who were occupying parts of China: "Arise Fellow Students to Defend the Motherland."
The president's aides suggested it would be unfair to show pictures of the violence at Tiananmen Square because, they say, Jiang Zemin had nothing to do with it. But they were glad to give 60 Minutes pictures of their embassy in Belgrade, which had been demolished by American bombers, during NATO's air war last year.
When asked if he believed that the United States purposely bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, Jiang answered obliquely.
"The United States has state-of-the-art technology," he said. "So all the explanations that they have given us for what they call a mistaken bombing are absolutely unconvincing."
"The identification marks of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade were too clear for people to miss," he continued. "So why has there been such an incident? It is still a question. But we have decided to look forward, to improve China-U.S. relations."
Afterward, the U.S. government had tried to convince China that the bombing had been a horrible mistake.
"President Clinton apologized to me for the bombing, many times, on the telephone," Jiang said. "I told him, since you represent Americans and I Chinese, it would be impossible for us to reach total agreement on this issue."
(CBS) In his recent interview, President Jiang told Wallace that accused spy Wen Ho Lee was not a spy for China.
"I can tell you frankly, China was not in any way involved in Wen Ho Lee's case," Jiang said during the interview. "But we do know that he is a scientist."
It is not strange, Jiang said, that Lee came to China and talked to Chinese scientists. "It's just as normal as some Chinese scientists travelling abroad," he said. "Allow me to quote a Chinese proverb which goes, 'If you are out to condemn someone, you can always trump up a charge.' We don't know what political motives are behind it. Today the Chinese still see Wen Ho Lee as a renowned scientist."
When Wallace said that Jiang seemed nervous for the first time in the conversation, Jiang laughed, adding that he was not nervous and he asked Wallace whether he thinks Wen Ho Lee is a spy. When Wallace declined to answer, Jiang chuckled some more.
Years ago when Jiang was a middle-school student learning English, he had studied the speeches of Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln. When he was a teacher, he used the Gettysburg Address in his course.
Wallace asked him about this, and Jiang offered to recite part of it.
"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal," Jiang recited from memory.
Wallace asked him why he learned part that so well.
"I focused on the words, 'All men are created equal,'" Jiang said. "This had a great influence on students when I was young. And I think what Abraham Lincoln described still remains the goal of American leaders today."
"Especially the last paragraph, 'The government of the people by the people and for the people shall never perish from the earth,'" he added.
Wallace then asked Jiang about democracy: "Why is it that Americans can elect their national leaders, but you apparently don't trust the Chinese people to elect your national leaders? "
"I am also an elected leader, though we have a different electoral system," Jiang said. "Each country should have its own system because our countries have different cultures and historic traditions, and different levels of education and economic development."
Jiang was chosen by the top leaders of the Communist Party. Public elections occur only in some villages and small towns, and candidates must either be members of the Communist Party or run as independents.
Wallace asked Jiang why China had a one-party state. "Why must we have opposition parties?" Jiang responded. "You are trying to apply the American values and the American political system to the whole world. But that is not very wise."
"Let me be frank," Jiang said. "China and the United States differ greatly in terms of our values. You Americans always use your values in makig judgments about the political situation in other countries. We want to learn from the West about science and technology and how to manage the economy, but this must be combined with specific conditions here. That's how we have made great progress in the last 20 years."
China's standard of living has been rising dramatically. In China, as in America, the economy largely determines the level of the people's satisfaction with their government. Jiang maintains that the vast majority of Chinese believe a strong one-party rule is the best way to hold the huge population together and to keep the economy growing. Stability is the top priority, sometimes at the expense of human rights.
Wallace asked him about human rights and about the Chinese government's persecution of the religious group Falun Gong.
"Their leader, Li Hongzhi, claims to be the reincarnation of the chief Buddha, and also a reincarnated Jesus Christ," Jiang said. "Can you believe that? He said that doomsday was about to come and that the Earth was going to explode. In fact what he says are just fallacies to deceive people. But as a result of his preaching, many families were broken and many lives were lost. So after careful deliberations, we concluded that Falun Gong is an evil cult."
Jiang pointed out that no Falun Gong followers have ever been sentenced to death.
But 26 of them have reportedly died in police custody.
Jiang told 60 Minutes the Falun Gong has driven thousands of its members to commit suicide.
The Falun Gong said that's ridiculous - that it does not encourage suicide and that it's still going strong despite the Chinese government's efforts to quash it.
Asked about the Chinese government's persecution of Christians, Jiang said that Christians have not been persecuted in China, and that the constitution protects religious freedom, including Christianity. "But Falun Gong is a cult," he said. "It is totally different from Christianity."
Jiang has always favored tough government controls of the press. "The press," he said, "should be a mouthpiece of the Party."
"I think all countries and parties must have their own publications to publicize their ideas," Jiang told Wallace. "We do have freedom of the press, but such freedom should be subordinate to and serve the interests of the nation. How can you allow such freedom to damage the national interests?"
Wallace asked Jiang why it had blocked certain Internet sites, including the BBC's and the Washington Post’s.
"We hope people will learn a lot of useful things from the Internet," Jiang said. "However, sometimes there is also unhealthy material - especially pornography on the Internet - which does great harm to our youngsters."
Wallace pointed out that the BBC and The Washington Post sites did not have pornography. "They might be banned because of some of their political new reports," Jiang said. "We need to be selective. We hope to restrict as much as possible information not conducive to China's development."
China's previous leader, Deng Xiaoping, once said, "to get rich is glorious." Jiang said that while this outlook does allow some people to become wealthy before others, "The ultimate objective is prosperity for all."
Wallace asked him if he thought America was more decadent than China.
"Let me put it this way," Jiang said. "Due to many differences between our countries in historical traditions, ways of life, religious beliefs, etc., things you don't regard as decadent in the States, we may regard as decadent in China. That's why we have to be very selective."
When he travels to America, Jiang will meet with American business leaders to urge them to increase their investments in China. Corporate America has long lusted after China's billion-buyer market, but China still sells a lot more to the United States than America sells to that country.
In effort to change that, the White House has said that if the U.S. Senate approves permanent normal trade relations with China, as the House already has, that would force China to reduce tariffs and trade barriers, and therfore to buy more American goods.
Jiang wants normal trade relations, too, and he ended the interview by underscoring that point.
"I'm convinced that this interview will further promote the friendship and mutual understanding between our two peoples," said Jiang, who told Wallace that he admires America. "I want to promote mutual understanding between our two peoples."
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